57 Panel "FAKMLC" build

[dsraven]

like said, don't bother shaving the mount adapter until you have a final height and placement resolved and an idea of what the new set up will look like. that adapter, if you look at it from the outside looking in, is simply a piece of round tubing with an L shaped flange welded on the end and is simply purposed to be an end point for the cross member tube. it is very easy to fab all by itself if you know what you want it to look like, it just needs to have the round tube on a flange so it will fit up against the frame and also accept the cross member. in the end, you want to be able to unbolt the mount from the frame and be able to remove the cross member for ease of engine/trans removal. this can look easy when you fab things up on paper or in your head but then the reality sets in. stuff like frame springing together when the mount is removed so you can't get the cross member back in without some sort of method to push the rails apart, or you bolt it together and then find out it is impossible to remove because the round tube is encapsulated inside the mounts and the frame would have to be spread the dimension of the round tube height in order to get the cross member clear of the round tube. I like the idea of the mount sitting on top of a flat surface because it makes it so much easier to disassemble later or shim up/down to get your angles fine tuned after the fact. you could use the web of the frame rail as a mounting point for strength, with a flat plate bolted to that. the flat plate could have a horizontal flat surface welded on at the correct height so the flat flange of the existing part in the pic could easily be bolted up. that way the cross member becomes easily removed if required but is bolted to the web of the frame rail for strength and there would be no cross bracing required to connect the upper and lower frame flanges so more room for exhaust pipes etc. as long as you don't have a frame mounted master cylinder set up that this idea may interfere with. if you estimate the frame bracket flat surface to be a little bit lower than actually required then you will have some room for fine tuning with shims to go up or take away shims to go down. your cross member is also bendable to get it in the correct place to fit your end point on the frame. a muffler shop with a hydraulic bender could do that in a minute for cheap as long as you can give them a pattern or a dimension.
get the driveline parts blocked where you need them (you can even block the engine/trans to be centered in the frame with a few 2x4's well placed and wired or cable tied) and then do some mocking up, with a normal trans mount installed between the trans and cross member, then the engine and trans can "flex" together as required under load/coast so that one mount system isn't trying to do all that work by itself (which is what could happen in your "rubber placed between trans and cross member" scenario). fab the connecting parts from crafter's poster board or cardboard and when you get it right cut them out of steel for the final.
on the engine height, I used a Camaro pan and it is sitting just about level with the bottom of my TCI MII cross member if memory serves me right. I can dig up a pic of that when I get home if I remember. I have my engine back into the firewall and raised slightly but it does sit pretty low compared to some I have seen. my trans mount is simply a piece of square tubing that is bent slightly to allow the trans to sit lower and it has flat bar welded on the ends, horizontally. then there are some flat bar pieces welded to my frame that those cross member flanges sit on top of. the flat bar on the frame is longer front to rear, than required to allow for any future engine trans changes. it would be easier to notch the firewall and do some quick sheet metal work for a trans hump that have to live with the driveline placed possibly not in the ideal location. the issue becomes what you want to use on the floor inside the cab because that would mean a custom floor covering instead of an "off the shelf" one. if cutting into your firewall make sure to cross brace the cab so it doesn't flex when the cut is made. otherwise you may have door fitment issues or cab mounting issues later. best to leave the doors on when doing this because then you will know right away if there is an issue surfacing. roll the windows down or cover them if doing any cutting/grinding so as not to cause damage to the glass.
just some thoughts for you to ponder while drinking eggnog...and checking ads in the latest classic trucks mag...and grunting appropriately to the wife's questions....haha

[dsraven]

sorry, can't find the pic with the camaro oil pan. I did find this pic which shows a variation of the trans mount

[dsraven]

camaro pan is roughly same height as regular trans pan. if memory serves me. they do put my name on my shirt at work.......

[FAKKY]

Originally Posted by dsraven

like said, don't bother shaving the mount adapter until you have a final height and placement resolved and an idea of what the new set up will look like. that adapter, if you look at it from the outside looking in, is simply a piece of round tubing with an L shaped flange welded on the end and is simply purposed to be an end point for the cross member tube. it is very easy to fab all by itself if you know what you want it to look like, it just needs to have the round tube on a flange so it will fit up against the frame and also accept the cross member. in the end, you want to be able to unbolt the mount from the frame and be able to remove the cross member for ease of engine/trans removal. this can look easy when you fab things up on paper or in your head but then the reality sets in. stuff like frame springing together when the mount is removed so you can't get the cross member back in without some sort of method to push the rails apart, or you bolt it together and then find out it is impossible to remove because the round tube is encapsulated inside the mounts and the frame would have to be spread the dimension of the round tube height in order to get the cross member clear of the round tube. I like the idea of the mount sitting on top of a flat surface because it makes it so much easier to disassemble later or shim up/down to get your angles fine tuned after the fact. you could use the web of the frame rail as a mounting point for strength, with a flat plate bolted to that. the flat plate could have a horizontal flat surface welded on at the correct height so the flat flange of the existing part in the pic could easily be bolted up. that way the cross member becomes easily removed if required but is bolted to the web of the frame rail for strength and there would be no cross bracing required to connect the upper and lower frame flanges so more room for exhaust pipes etc. as long as you don't have a frame mounted master cylinder set up that this idea may interfere with. if you estimate the frame bracket flat surface to be a little bit lower than actually required then you will have some room for fine tuning with shims to go up or take away shims to go down. your cross member is also bendable to get it in the correct place to fit your end point on the frame. a muffler shop with a hydraulic bender could do that in a minute for cheap as long as you can give them a pattern or a dimension.


get the driveline parts blocked where you need them (you can even block the engine/trans to be centered in the frame with a few 2x4's well placed and wired or cable tied) and then do some mocking up, with a normal trans mount installed between the trans and cross member, then the engine and trans can "flex" together as required under load/coast so that one mount system isn't trying to do all that work by itself (which is what could happen in your "rubber placed between trans and cross member" scenario). fab the connecting parts from crafter's poster board or cardboard and when you get it right cut them out of steel for the final.

on the engine height, I used a Camaro pan and it is sitting just about level with the bottom of my TCI MII cross member if memory serves me right. I can dig up a pic of that when I get home if I remember. I have my engine back into the firewall and raised slightly but it does sit pretty low compared to some I have seen. my trans mount is simply a piece of square tubing that is bent slightly to allow the trans to sit lower and it has flat bar welded on the ends, horizontally. then there are some flat bar pieces welded to my frame that those cross member flanges sit on top of. the flat bar on the frame is longer front to rear, than required to allow for any future engine trans changes. it would be easier to notch the firewall and do some quick sheet metal work for a trans hump that have to live with the driveline placed possibly not in the ideal location. the issue becomes what you want to use on the floor inside the cab because that would mean a custom floor covering instead of an "off the shelf" one. if cutting into your firewall make sure to cross brace the cab so it doesn't flex when the cut is made. otherwise you may have door fitment issues or cab mounting issues later. best to leave the doors on when doing this because then you will know right away if there is an issue surfacing. roll the windows down or cover them if doing any cutting/grinding so as not to cause damage to the glass.

just some thoughts for you to ponder while drinking eggnog...and checking ads in the latest classic trucks mag...and grunting appropriately to the wife's questions....haha

ha ha ... Appreciate the info and pics.

I got most of this done and basically have the engine and transmission raised as high as I can without having to redo the trans tunnel.
That means my engine oil pan sits above the cross member.... and the transmission pan probably right about even.

I had already cut the XMEMBER and the frame connector/endpoints ..... so I measured and tack welded them together last night and think its a pretty good fit. So will get it welded today and put in to support the backend.







I shifted an remeasured the engine angle and the trans angle. Think Im about as good as IM going to get. IM almost 1 degree rearend down (not completely level as the truck sits in carport).



So that should be close to 3 degrees down at engine.
Im also around 2.5 degrees down at tailshaft.

The engine measured on the intake plate has a very slight tilt


Unsure if I can shim that closer ...... each action has an opposite reaction I have found that sometimes you make it worse the other way when trying to fix these very small differences. Will see. Also needs to see if any tilt in fame as it stands (its pretty level though) and take that into consideration (left to right).

BIGGEST lesson I learened from all of this is that I should have used the tranmission member to help decide position of engine ealier on before making decision on AC and steering rack clearance. In the end it seems its best to go as high as you can ...... as that gives you

1) Clearance for front end steering rack lines
2) Possible clearance for AC unit. Looks like my OEM would actually fit ....... but I already ordered a relocation bracket and new AC unit.
3) Less fabrication or work on rear end trans crossmember ....... and better clerance for oil plan and trans pan.

I do the like CPP kit for $60 odd ... its well made ...... just not sure sinve I had to mess with it anyway if it would have been easier just getting squarre tubing and making my own. Probably a split there ..... less time and a good unit .... raw material probably would have been 30-40 anyway.

definately need to get the trans welded in and the the engine mounts mocked and put in and welded.
Should be able to this weekend ....... but I said that last weekend

[yossarian19]

What I did was to bolt the cross member to the bottom of the frame rails. This put the rear of the trans lower than I wanted but it was the easiest solution to mount the cross member, by far.
To make up the difference in height that I wanted, I took a 1 1/4 (or so) piece of square tube, drilled two holes, put end caps on it just for fun & used that to space the transmission mount off of the cross member.
I even painted it, so with the end caps & two coats of gray it doesn't look too country when I crawl under the truck.
We probably have our engines at different heights but the principal applies: hang the cross member low / where it's easy, get the height where you want it by adding steel.

[FAKKY]

Originally Posted by yossarian19

What I did was to bolt the cross member to the bottom of the frame rails. This put the rear of the trans lower than I wanted but it was the easiest solution to mount the cross member, by far.
To make up the difference in height that I wanted, I took a 1 1/4 (or so) piece of square tube, drilled two holes, put end caps on it just for fun & used that to space the transmission mount off of the cross member.
I even painted it, so with the end caps & two coats of gray it doesn't look too country when I crawl under the truck.
We probably have our engines at different heights but the principal applies: hang the cross member low / where it's easy, get the height where you want it by adding steel.

Thanks.
I decided just to cut the damn tabs off and relocate them where I needed them. Figured if I got it wrong could just cut them off and redo
Once its all in Ill post some pics. Just remembered you hitting a similar issue. Wasnt really the rework of the ttrans Xmmeber was concerned about .... still just fretting about engine position ...... lol .... probably will be even after its driving.

[joedoh]

yep, experience is just that, doing it a second time better than the first. some guys will do hours worth of work to avoid a 10 minute fix that starts over (I have!) and some guys get it right away. congrats!

[FAKKY]

Originally Posted by joedoh

yep, experience is just that, doing it a second time better than the first. some guys will do hours worth of work to avoid a 10 minute fix that starts over (I have!) and some guys get it right away. congrats!

Amen. I hope to do this a 2nd time ...... but we will have to see. Was sort of a bucket list kinda of thing ..... it might be when Im retired I decide to do a another one ...... but who knows what life has in store for me then ....

Heres the motor mounts from LSX innovations. I asked for them unwelded as
I wanted to move the bushings further forward ... so I welded myself. Very good quality.


https://www.ebay.com/usr/lsxinnovati...72.m2749.l2754








Hope to weld in on the 1st to frame ....... then wife is going to paint the interior with POR15 and do the sound proofing whilst I wsork on brake lines and help her ..... and maybe chassis electrical

[FAKKY]

Well i got the mounts in.
However not too excited about the quality if welds as I was in some hard/tight spaces using the mig gun.

So thinking about pulling the engine ........ and grinding back and rewelding most with mig and then the tight passage with stick. Just so more confident on welds. Not sure how much stress these joints see but dont want to find out.

[FAKKY]

After cutting back and rewelding - not fighting tight space and movement and getting gun sertup properly.
Much better.

[FAKKY]

Huge day (for me). Engine is in its FINAL resting place ..... mounting brackets on and welded and painted and the transmission mount also.









So no more engine hoists to work around.

On the next area I was looking at (fuel) .... was really hoping to run an TANKSINC intank pump in the existing tank ..... but doesn look like thats going to work due to the offset 8.8 explorer rear.



Since the tank is leaking fuel somewhere (not sure if structural or other as yet)


I'll probbaly look to move to rear like everyone else. Just a little concerned what that means for routing of exhaust to the rear .....

[FAKKY]

Scrapped the rear idea.
Exhuast placement as well as no spare ....


Looks like i'll either be going with a custom 10" wide tank (47" long x 10" tall " 10" wide) for $360 shipped .....

or

http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/pa...rod/prd128.htm

together with their intank pump.


Most concern is the driveshaft obviously based on pic above. So might need to mock that out.

[yossarian19]

Just to throw another option out there, had you considered using a VetteWorks type adapter, so you can run a factory fuel pump / regulator / gauge sender?
Not sure it's going to be any cheaper but I like OEM solutions when I can find them.

[FAKKY]

Originally Posted by yossarian19

Just to throw another option out there, had you considered using a VetteWorks type adapter, so you can run a factory fuel pump / regulator / gauge sender?
Not sure it's going to be any cheaper but I like OEM solutions when I can find them.

Well thats interesting.
Pretty sure Im going to go with the TANKSINC intank pump - they have been super responsive/friendly on the 2-3 emails I have sent and have heard nothing but good feedback on their pumps.

Tank is tricky part. Think ....

1) Im going to have to get my rearend dead nuts center and plumbdrop the center of frame to ensure i have it where its going to end up.
2) Mock up a 3" sewer pipe or whatever from the flange to the output so I can see where the shaft will be.
3) Create a few squares - 10x10 and 12x12 example to see both what the clearance from frame to driveshaft looks like all the way down based on position of tank.

Go from there. Its likely I might have to go a custom tank thats 10" wide .... I got a quote for around $400 shipped ..... but its steel. Would be clost to 20Gallonos though so thats a bit better than the 16 typical and then dont have to mess with the tire.

Other options considering ...

* Dual tanks and keeping them fed somehow
* Tank on on the otherside of the frame and run the fillup across
* Go rear - and move tire to back panel door somehow - hang on back

lol

[FAKKY]

Well pulled the fuel tank.



I measure it as 49x11(w)x9(d)

Anyone know if this is a stock tank ?

The problem Im going to have with driveshaft clearance and the offset rearend ..... is even if I get a custom tanlk made thats narrower (50x9x9 .. ~ 17GAL) ..... the frame isnt square due to the crossmember supports where the axle leaf hangers tie in .........
So it might not fit anyway





This is with a 2" pvc pipe. Real driveshatft would be 0.5 inch further each side (3")

[yossarian19]

Why not just use a 2" driveshaft with heavier wall?
My '75 Wagoneer uses a 1" solid bar drive shaft in front. Can't remember how slip was achieved, but the point I'm trying to make, is that wall thickness can make up for any deficiencies of diameter.
It'll make packaging the tank that much easier, right?

[FAKKY]

Originally Posted by yossarian19

Why not just use a 2" driveshaft with heavier wall?
My '75 Wagoneer uses a 1" solid bar drive shaft in front. Can't remember how slip was achieved, but the point I'm trying to make, is that wall thickness can make up for any deficiencies of diameter.
It'll make packaging the tank that much easier, right?

Yeah - I thought the same originally - but both driveshops I spoke with (Dennys/PST) both recommended a 3".

I've been fighting this measurements and fitment that last night I;m almost giving up and going to go back to putting it the rear and just finding an alternative spot for the tire.

I even thought about a custom tank going on both sides of the frame sort of like 'U' right where the side fuel fill up is ........ both nothing really seems to be a great option ...... if I had known earlier - I wouldnt have gone with an offset 8.8 ...... the extra 2" really kills me ......

Only other option would be putting the tank on the other side ...... not sure what the issues from that would be - and running a filler pipe over the top of the driveshaft closer to the axle end. Still thinking on this one .... Guessing weight/balance will be an issue with driver/fuel on same side ?

I'll ask the driveshop specifically about the thicker DOM. Possible or not.

[dsraven]

how about a custom (or not) round fuel tank like a lot of highway trucks use. it could be a as simple as buying an air tank that fits the space and then welding in the appropriate fittings for the filler and outlets and some mounting hardware (or use straps to hold the tank into some saddles on the frame).
check under a newer mustang for driveshaft clearance, not much there either. I know because I helped a buddy install some new exhaust on an '87 era. skinned knuckles to prove it. the important thing is to know your rear axle cannot move over enough to hit anything. a good panhard bar could be in order and then run the suspension through a full up and down to ensure it has clearance.

[FAKKY]

DSRAVEN.

Good idea - thought of that too -- I had already reached out to two fabricators on ebay for the spun aluminium tanks ..... to see about putting in a support flange for a intank pump. They both said they couldn't do it

the 10x40" is still only 13.5 gallons also ......

edit - whats a panhard bar ? Welded to axle and frame to prevent sideways movement of axle ? [google]

[FAKKY]

-- Update.....

Dennys driveshaft got back to me and said they cant do that 2" in steel for that length.

"Sorry...we cannot do that length in a 2 inch diameter."

I asked them what the max length is - but suspect its also tied to HP. Maybe ok on tyhe old 150HP engine

So right now still stuck on choices/options

1) Custom 50x9x9 narrow tank ..... might fit ..... along passenger rail near fuel intake.

2) NonCustom Tank on the drivers side wheres there is more space and run a longer fuel pickup across the top to the passenger side.

3) Move it to rear.

Thoughts ? Especially on [2] ??

[dsraven]

panhard bar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liR1--EHMg8

how about dual torpedo tanks, one on each side. crossover fuel line between them or frame mounted fuel pump with a tank switch over valve (like the old days, lol) or a tank on the inside of the frame with a sister tank on the outside of the frame-same side. under cab tank outside of frame on each side? S10 tank next to frame? (dunno size)

http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/pa...rod/prd591.htm

custom tank fabricator. possibly stainless or plain old steel if they don't wanna do aluminum? may depend on what you plan to run for a fuel pump-in tank-on frame?

[FAKKY]

Originally Posted by dsraven

panhard bar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liR1--EHMg8

how about dual torpedo tanks, one on each side. crossover fuel line between them or frame mounted fuel pump with a tank switch over valve (like the old days, lol) or a tank on the inside of the frame with a sister tank on the outside of the frame-same side. under cab tank outside of frame on each side? S10 tank next to frame? (dunno size)

http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/pa...rod/prd591.htm

custom tank fabricator. possibly stainless or plain old steel if they don't wanna do aluminum? may depend on what you plan to run for a fuel pump-in tank-on frame?

Dual tanks would be awesome - but then exhaust gets pretty hard ...... and wiring and cost.

I did think about running the tank outside f the frame rail or 50/50 in a "U" ... but then read this ....

https://www.autosafety.org/history-g...s-tank-defect/

[joedoh]

take your tank to a welding shop and have them clearance the rear of the tank (make it a trapezoid instead of a rectangle). if you need an in tank pump/sender bung installed at the same time they can do that too. it wont even cost what a new tank costs, and this one already fits.

looking good, keep up the good work.

[FAKKY]

Originally Posted by joedoh

take your tank to a welding shop and have them clearance the rear of the tank (make it a trapezoid instead of a rectangle). if you need an in tank pump/sender bung installed at the same time they can do that too. it wont even cost what a new tank costs, and this one already fits.

looking good, keep up the good work.

Yeah I think thats one of the two options.

Trapezoid on the passenger side - custom made .... like $500-700 depending on number of irregular shapes to make work.

Regular fuel tank abnd relocate on drivers side where there is more clearance .... and run the fuel tank intake pipe across the top to the neck filler on the passenger side.


Im really starting to understand why so many guys out it in the rear though.

[joedoh]

Originally Posted by FAKKY

Trapezoid on the passenger side - custom made .... like $500-700 depending on number of irregular shapes to make work.

I am not suggesting making a new one. I dont know about where you are but here there are a lot of welding/fab shops that build dirt modified racers for weekend fun. I bet a triangle slice, not even any added material, would fix your interference. welding a gas tank is not dangerous if you clean it out well with a degreaser, some places will even fill it with sand or water.

for that matter it might be cheaper to have your axle "shortened", get an extra right axle and take the offset out of the left tube, add new leaf perches. centers the pumpkin for cheaper than building/buying a new tank