Patriot Aluminum heads?

[Heavy Evy]

So I got to thinking last night (first time for everything I guess) about some aluminum heads to put on my 383 stroker. The camel back fuelies I Have now im not happy with and im told by everyone else that there just not as good to run for racing anymore. I called my machine shop yesterday to see what they recomened, he told me to stay away from factory small block heads and go with some darts or world products heads. I was thumbing through my jegs and I found some patriot aluminum heads for a little bit less than cast iron heads so maybe just go with a set of those? Who knows? anyone ever run these?

[PhilaTruck]

I did some site searching:

Post 10

I'd stop looking right there, if DJracer is recommending them, they'll be fine.

If you want flow numbers, looky here.

[shortbed70]

I run their steel heads but havnt put any miles n the motor yet but it woke my combo up.

[swb85]

Patriot makes a nice product, and their customer service is excellent. Great budget cylinder head.

[Heavy Evy]

Awsome thanks for the info. I love the idea of saving a few bucks and loosing some weight at the same time. Now do you recomend 185cc, 190cc or 225cc? angle or straight plug?

[PhilaTruck]

For the runner volume, you'll need to provide more info about your engine, essentially, the bigger the runner, the higher up the rpm range your power will be. This is one of the keys in cam selection. The other will be compression, followed by stall speed and rear gear.

Angle vs straight? Stay straight- you'll prolly need new headers for the angle plugs. I didn't but I DID dimple some primary tubes.

Do you trust your machine shop? No matter. Tell them what you realistically want to do with the motor, how are you going to use it. Can you live with low vacuum and solid lifters? Get their recommendations and post them back here.

I just re-read your initial post and it sounds like you're just replacing heads. The more info about the engine, esp a cam grind number, the better recommendations you'll get.

[shortbed70]

Racing 225, street 190 or 185. Mine are the 185.

[Heavy Evy]

Ooops sorry. My cam is a comp extreme energy 274. Compression is higher at 10 or so been about a year since I checked but there 10 to 1 pistons. 2300 stall and 4.10 rear gears. 750 carb with performer intake (i know terrible) after I put the new heads on I want a different intake maybe an rpm airgap or? This combo is in my 68 nova I'm trying to get into the 12's and still be streetable.

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by Heavy Evy

Ooops sorry. My cam is a comp extreme energy 274. Compression is higher at 10 or so been about a year since I checked but there 10 to 1 pistons. 2300 stall and 4.10 rear gears. 750 carb with performer intake (i know terrible) after I put the new heads on I want a different intake maybe an rpm airgap or? This combo is in my 68 nova I'm trying to get into the 12's and still be streetable.

The 185cc heads fit right in with the engine and the car you are building. They will work great with an RPM intake too. It should be very streetable with them.

Your cam & converter are a little small to get the Nova into the 12's. I would guess more like low to mid 13's.

My old 69 Nova had a 383 stroker motor running 200cc Sportsman II heads, a Comp 292H cam, 4.10 gears and a 3000 stall and it was only in the 12.30's. It was very streetable and I drove it every day for three years.

You could go with the 190's for future growth to be able to make it faster with a cam & converter change. They won't kill bottom end too much vs the 185's so if you think you might want to keep making it faster after you get into the 12's I would consider starting out with the 190's.

[Ticker]

A few thoughts, FWIW

Patriots have some inconsistent feedback on quality.

What's your budget for heads? This probably the biggest factor for making a selection.

There's no reason to invest in mondo heads unless you're considering a cam swap; the XE274 is a good cam but with .490 lift (unless you're using 1.6 rockers) you don't need to go xtreme on the heads. A set of Dart, World Products or Brodix heads would be fine.

185cc runner size is a bit small IMHO for a warm 383. 200's would be my choice, 195's are even better as they'll work with a hot 355.

If you're really going racing, it's time to go at least for a Performer RPM, and possibly even a tall single plane if you're willing to give up some around-town driveability.

[Heavy Evy]

Originally Posted by 68 TT

The 185cc heads fit right in with the engine and the car you are building. They will work great with an RPM intake too. It should be very streetable with them.

Your cam & converter are a little small to get the Nova into the 12's. I would guess more like low to mid 13's.

My old 69 Nova had a 383 stroker motor running 200cc Sportsman II heads, a Comp 292H cam, 4.10 gears and a 3000 stall and it was only in the 12.30's. It was very streetable and I drove it every day for three years.

You could go with the 190's for future growth to be able to make it faster with a cam & converter change. They won't kill bottom end too much vs the 185's so if you think you might want to keep making it faster after you get into the 12's I would consider starting out with the 190's.

I will be happy with 12's for a long time im sure because I like driving my car on the street more than at the track. I want this thing to be reliable and take roadtrips in it as well. I was thinking I might need to change the cam and converter as well possibly a roller cam and lifters. Would you go with the 185's or 190's in my shoes also is the air gap rpm intake any good or should I be looking at something else?

[Heavy Evy]

Originally Posted by Ticker

A few thoughts, FWIW

Patriots have some inconsistent feedback on quality.

What's your budget for heads? This probably the biggest factor for making a selection.

There's no reason to invest in mondo heads unless you're considering a cam swap; the XE274 is a good cam but with .490 lift (unless you're using 1.6 rockers) you don't need to go xtreme on the heads. A set of Dart, World Products or Brodix heads would be fine.

185cc runner size is a bit small IMHO for a warm 383. 200's would be my choice, 195's are even better as they'll work with a hot 355.

If you're really going racing, it's time to go at least for a Performer RPM, and possibly even a tall single plane if you're willing to give up some around-town driveability.

haha I have some what of a budget for heads but I was just comparing them to cast iron heads. I figured get the same power with less weight and save some cash. I'm running 1.5 roller rockers at the moment. What intake would you recomend if not a rpm? I want this car to be streetable and reliable

[shortbed70]

I see nothing wrong with the rpm airgap intake. It's a great intake for street strip. I am partial to the looks of a single plane myself but for a street car I would stick with what you have. If your going to swap cam and convertor out then go with 190's even though you won't notice alot of difference between the 185's they will flow slightly more cfm. It your wanting a proven package than look at doing a topend kit where everything is matched.

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by Heavy Evy

I will be happy with 12's for a long time im sure because I like driving my car on the street more than at the track. I want this thing to be reliable and take roadtrips in it as well. I was thinking I might need to change the cam and converter as well possibly a roller cam and lifters. Would you go with the 185's or 190's in my shoes also is the air gap rpm intake any good or should I be looking at something else?

With this being primarily a street car I would stay on the small side for the heads, intake & converter. 185's with the standard RPM intake should do well with the cam you have.

You don't need to spend the cash on the retrofit roller cam setup. Spend that money on a set of Cal-Trac bars and some adjustable Rancho shocks instead. It will take full advantage of what power you do have and put it to the ground.

See where this gets you before you change out your converter. Road trips with a higher stall and no lock up converter will not go well together. It will just put too much heat into the trans with the converter slipping at cruise speed for hours on end.

[Heavy Evy]

Groovy thanks for the advice. I think I'll stick with my setup and just get some heads and an rpm intake. I know the higher stall sucks on long hauls. I took the car to vegas earlier this year with a stock converter and it was lame then and the 4.10 gears don't help either maybe its time for a 700r4?

[Ticker]

Note that a dual plane, even a good one, reduces flow by as much as 25-30% vs. 10-15% for a good single-plane.

A dual-plane is fine and more streetable, but once you get into reasonably serious heads you've made the decision to some extent to give up driveability for power.

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by Heavy Evy

Groovy thanks for the advice. I think I'll stick with my setup and just get some heads and an rpm intake. I know the higher stall sucks on long hauls. I took the car to vegas earlier this year with a stock converter and it was lame then and the 4.10 gears don't help either maybe its time for a 700r4?

Overdrive and a lock-up converter will do wonders for your car with the 4.10's.

For the money involved in getting a 700R4 to live with more than 300 hp you are better off getting a 4L80E right off the bat and not wasting your time yanking out a 700R4 multiple times after you break it. Your engine will build enough torque to break quite a few of the weak links in a 700R4 / 4L60.

You can get a 4L80E that has been converted to a manual valve body that will work with no computer that they refer to as a 4L80 but you can also run the 94-95 truck 16197427 PCM as a transmission controller and use some of the other functions to make the engine run better too.

You can have the PCM run your ignition timing and adjust for knock retard, control electric fans / water pump drive and control an electric fuel pump in addition to running the trans. This is what I am in the process of doing with my 68 Camaro. The car will eventually get EFI but for now it will work this way with the carbureted setup.

[Captainfab]

I'm glad you posted this....I've been wondering if that could be done but I'm not at a point where I need to get a controller yet. I'd like to see your setup sometime when you get it done.

Originally Posted by 68 TT

Overdrive and a lock-up converter will do wonders for your car with the 4.10's.

For the money involved in getting a 700R4 to live with more than 300 hp you are better off getting a 4L80E right off the bat and not wasting your time yanking out a 700R4 multiple times after you break it. Your engine will build enough torque to break quite a few of the weak links in a 700R4 / 4L60.

You can get a 4L80E that has been converted to a manual valve body that will work with no computer that they refer to as a 4L80 but you can also run the 94-95 truck 16197427 PCM as a transmission controller and use some of the other functions to make the engine run better too.

You can have the PCM run your ignition timing and adjust for knock retard, control electric fans / water pump drive and control an electric fuel pump in addition to running the trans. This is what I am in the process of doing with my 68 Camaro. The car will eventually get EFI but for now it will work this way with the carbureted setup.

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by Captainfab

I'm glad you posted this....I've been wondering if that could be done but I'm not at a point where I need to get a controller yet. I'd like to see your setup sometime when you get it done.

I will let you know when I get it on the road. It may not be until next spring as I have way too many other higher priority projects that need done before I can spend any time playing on the Camaro.

[Captainfab]

No problem, I'm not ready to install a 4L80E for a while anyway.....I've got some priority projects also. Do you have an estimate on the cost of setting up a controller like this? I know the aftermarket controllers are typically $1,000-$1200.00

Sorry for the Hijack Heavy Evy......

Originally Posted by 68 TT

I will let you know when I get it on the road. It may not be until next spring as I have way too many other higher priority projects that need done before I can spend any time playing on the Camaro.

[68 TT]

Originally Posted by Captainfab

No problem, I'm not ready to install a 4L80E for a while anyway.....I've got some priority projects also. Do you have an estimate on the cost of setting up a controller like this? I know the aftermarket controllers are typically $1,000-$1200.00

Sorry for the Hijack Heavy Evy......

The hard part you can get from Pull & Save when you can find a good donor
$50 - complete 4L80E out of a 91-up 2500 van or rwd truck
$25 - 16197427 PCM from a 94-95 SUV or truck, even S-10's
$15 - engine wire harness from PCM donor vehicle
$ varies - add all the sensors from the PCM donor engine
$30 - add the ignition system if you want this to be computer controlled too

The easy part you can buy any time from Moates.net or others
$80 - ALDL port adapter cable
http://www.moates.net/product_info.p...roducts_id=127
$85 - Chip burner & software
http://www.moates.net/product_info.p...roducts_id=197

The PCM from the transmission donor vehicle will be able to make the trans function properly as long as it has VSS and TPS plus a MAP sensor and CTS.

The hardest part will be getting the TPS signal if you have a carbureted engine but there are a few ways of fitting a TPS sensor to them you can buy or just fab up your own variation.

With the Tuner Pro RT software that comes with the chip burner you can disable the error code flags that are for features you do not use in the conversion and modify the transmission control features to suite your driving style.

A great performance trans tune for the 4L80E can be found in the BAMY BIN file used in the 91-up 454SS trucks. Transfer these parameters to the BIN file that is in the PCM you are working with and it will really change the way the truck feels. It makes the truck seem much lighter than it does with the standard 4L80E 2500 truck programming.

For under $300 you can get the 4L80E into the vehicle of your choice and reprogram the PCM to function as a transmission controller plus you can now data log all the sensor data using your laptop while driving to help trouble shoot your engine.

There are even hacks out there that will allow you to run a wide band oxygen sensor with the 16197427 PCM without the aftermarket controller and data log the sensor data in the data stream of the PCM so you can really tune the AFR on your engine to suite it perfectly.

[Average Joe]

Great stuff here. Thanks for sharing 4L80e info!!

[Captainfab]

Thanks for the rundown and the links 68 TT

I've already got a couple 4L80E's.....one from CL and another from Pull & Save. I'd like to put one in my Suburban someday. Now I know what to look for when I get back over to P&S. I'm a little familar with ECM/PCM's but not enough to be burning any chips just yet. Going this route for a controller sounds like the way to go to me, if you don't mind learning how to set it all up. I like to learn new things

[Pyrotechnic]

68 TT this is very good info. I had always wondered if you could take the ECM and disable the fuel injection functions and just have it control a transmission but this confirms it. It sure beats spending $1000+ on a aftermarket transmission computer!

Even better that it uses an older computer so you don't have to deal with super expensive software or buying credits and all that mess.

[VA72C10]

great info~!