Someone convince me to run ZDDP

[DT1]

I have been reading everything I can get my hands on about the benefits of running an oil with ZDDP in my SBC, flat tappet engine, but to date I'm still not convinced.
I hear horror stories about some engines only going 200 miles or less because of the lack of zinc in the oil.
According to what I've read, the oil companies took zinc out of oil quite a few years ago and didn't bother telling the consumer about it.
I hear things like: "Engines with flat tappet cams must have zinc for proper lubrication" and "You can't run zinc in a modern engine because it will ruin the catalytic convertor."
I own a 71 C-10, 67 Mustang and 56 T-Bird. I have always ran regular Dino in all of them. I restored the Mustang in 96. It now has over 60,000 miles on the engine. No Problems. I restored the C-10 last year and have already logged 12,000 miles. No Problems. The bird has 40,000 miles. No problems.
How about catalytic convertors? I have a 75 F-100 with a CAT. and I believe back then all oil had zinc in it. Why didn't the Cats go bad back then?
I'm not saying that oil in flat tappet cam engines wouldn't benefit from a zinc oil or additive. I just saying that I need more convincing from someone that really knows the story and not someone that heard it from someone, that heard it from someone...

[mvfd70]

Ive only rebuilt one engine so far so i'm no expert, but from what I've read/heard the ZDDP is most crucial for the break in. No ZDDP for the break in period will cause too much friction on the cam and lifters and flatten the lobe on the cam. Once it's broke in the ZDDP is not necessary but it sure doesn't hurt either. My machine shop guy said he always uses Shell Rotella for break in. That's just my 2 cents

[1968SWBBigBlock]

I do not need to convince you - only a cam failure will really do the trick.
The EPA Mandated the removal of ZDDP from oils.
With modern roller cams it is not needed.
The older cat converters use a different technology than modern converter - that may explain part of the difference.
Secondly the feds now require all Mfgs to warrant emssions equipment - the mfgs needed parts that would last longer and still meet the newer more stringent EPA standards.
ZDDP is much more critcal during break in but is used more as an insurance policy after words and to extend the life of you equipment.
Camshaft profile also comes into play - the more radical the camshaft, the heavier the spring load the more important ZDDP becomes

[DT1]

Quote: "I do not need to convince you"

And you didn't

Premature cam failure is more than likely caused by improper break in procedure.

So I guess, after 60,000 miles I should worry?

I really think that this is a bill of goods that too many people have bought.

[ProStreet68SB]

Originally Posted by DT1

Quote: "I do not need to convince you"

And you didn't

Premature cam failure is more than likely caused by improper break in procedure.

So I guess, after 60,000 miles I should worry?

I really think that this is a bill of goods that too many people have bought.

I hope you wipe a cam and learn your lesson.

Until then, lose your high and mighty attitude.
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[DT1]

Originally Posted by ProStreet68SB

I hope you wipe a cam and learn your lesson.

Until then, lose your high and mighty attitude.
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Sorry Chief, Not trying to get into a pissing contest here.
I'm completely open to any solid proof anyone can give me.
Anyone?
Haven't whipped one yet. More than likely won't.
Just what high and mighty attitude are you referring to?

[ProStreet68SB]

Originally Posted by DT1

Sorry Chief, Not trying to get into a pissing contest here.
I'm completely open to any solid proof anyone can give me.
Anyone?
Haven't whipped one yet. More than likely won't.
Just what high and mighty attitude are you referring to?

I'm not your chief, pal.
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[prostreetC-10]

Originally Posted by DT1

I really think that this is a bill of goods that too many people have bought.

Then why did you even start a thread on it? Are we trolling for touble?

[DT1]

Originally Posted by prostreetC-10

Then why did you even start a thread on it? Are we trolling for touble?

I'm absolutely not trolling for trouble. Why does this upset you so much?
This forum is a very valuable tool for anyone that is open to gain knowledge from others that share a common interest.
I never said "Don't run ZDDP because I know better." I'm just speaking from many years of personal experience. I have been involved with engine rebuilding for over 40 years and I still learn about it everyday.
I also know that you can't believe everything you read. A little proof will go far.

[prostreetC-10]

Originally Posted by DT1

I'm absolutely not trolling for trouble. Why does this upset you so much?

A little proof will go far.

lol....I'm far from upset. I think I'm post #12 and the first part of the thread seems like You are not too open minded. I also don't know you or your experience so I would like to ask what kind of proof would you consider valid and not want to argue? What do you need to see?

[DT1]

Originally Posted by prostreetC-10

lol....I'm far from upset. I think I'm post #12 and the first part of the thread seems like You are not too open minded. I also don't know you or your experience so I would like to ask what kind of proof would you consider valid and not want to argue? What do you need to see?

If I wasn't open minded, I would have never started this thread in the first place.
Argue? Show me anywhere in this thread where I'm arguing. I'm as concerned about my engines as the next guy. I have also stated that I don't run an oil with a zinc additive and I have racked up many thousands of miles, on more than one engine, without cam failure. I also stated that most premature cam failures are caused from improper break in procedure. Most American V-8 engines rely on splash lubrication for the cams. That's why it's so critical to break one in properly.

[budman k20]

If your looking for proof that you need to use ZDDP you will be waiting a long time. there is a lot of info on the science of zinc in oil and you will have to draw your own conclusions. I personaly would rather have zinc in my oil when my fan belt breaks and the engine gets hot before I realize what just happened.
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[budman k20]

1968 SWB big block pretty much summed up why people use ZDDP. I have personal experience wiping out a flat tappet cam in a 500hp 406 sbc. My engine builder claims anything over 100lbs on the seat will benefit from ZDDP. Sounds like your stuff is stock or close to it so you may be fine. I don't put more than 3k on my truck in a season so using ZDDP only costs me an extra $9.00 a year.z My rebuild cost me close to $500 with me doing all the assy work. So far it's working out OK for me. I guess I'm a believer now!
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[DT1]

Originally Posted by budman k20

1968 SWB big block pretty much summed up why people use ZDDP. I have personal experience wiping out a flat tappet cam in a 500hp 406 sbc. My engine builder claims anything over 100lbs on the seat will benefit from ZDDP. Sounds like your stuff is stock or close to it so you may be fine. I don't put more than 3k on my truck in a season so using ZDDP only costs me an extra $9.00 a year.z My rebuild cost me close to $500 with me doing all the assy work. So far it's working out OK for me. I guess I'm a believer now!
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Posted via Mobile Device

Well, there you go. Everything I build is stock. I have NEVER read that "Stock" is exempt.

[Hubscrub]

DT1, i'm the same as you i use off the shelf oil with all my old vehicles i have been driving for years so if it happens it happens but i also have used several used cams in my builds too. I agree break in is important but i'm not sure about the other. Also i don't build radical engines either not into that so I can't say much on that side of the road.

[1968SWBBigBlock]

American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA) Bulletin #TB2333
The ZDDP issue and the change in oil standards are addressed in the above bulletin.
If you can not pull up the bulletin as a member find a local shop that is and they can print a copy for you.
This is really not a smoke and mirrors game.
The lack of ZDDP in oil caught many camshaft Mfgs off guard and they got to take the blunt of the issue for building "junk" when in fact oil was often the issue.
Tack on folks that did not lube cams correctly prior to break in and or failed to follow Mfgs instructions for break in and you have a big issue on your hands.
As I addressed before - not using it seems to be like playing russian roulette with your motor and wallet.
I have no vested interest other than a substantial amount of reading and education that told me I was far better off to spend 7 bucks per oil change than to risk a motor rebuild.
Spend some time at the local machine shop - these guys also got an ear full during the API oil transition---I know guys that took a ton of $ on the chin unitl everyone started to figure out what was causing the rash of cam/lifter failures

ZDDP and other extreme pressure additives are surface modifiers. They modify bearing and journal surface characteristics to allow lubricants to develop more "oiliness" (an old term) or lubricity and reduce the tendency to scuff and gall under heavily loaded boundary lubrication situations. Camshafts and lifters in high speed engines definitely fit this category due to the high velocities and accelerations required to open and close valves many times per second.

[prostreetC-10]

Let's not forget the one thing that needs no proof and that is ZMAX!!!!!

My buddy Carroll swears by it and even has it in his pacemaker!

[prostreetC-10]

Argue might not have been the best choice of words. It does "seem" like your mind is made up though so what's the point?

[DT1]

Originally Posted by prostreetC-10

Argue might not have been the best choice of words. It does "seem" like your mind is made up though so what's the point?

I already stated that I am open minded. I never intended to agitate anyone.
My point is: In my experience, I have never had a cam failure with any one of my old flat tappet engines.
Why should I run oil with zinc now?

[longbed67]

Why you may ask.... because there is a person called Capt. Edward A. Murphy well known creator of Murphy's Law. His principle has come to visit everyone I know time to time and has also visited myself, if you have not experienced his principle you are either lucky and should go buy a lottery ticket, you suffer from amnesia, or are in denial... If you are unaware of his principle check the link below for the story. I hope you never experience engine problems but if you are truly interested in the hard evidence you should refer to peer review chemistry journals that have thoroughly tested this and read the results for yourself. The second (lower) link is one to a peer reviewed article confirming its anti wear properties and as well breaks down its mechanism of how ZDDP actually acts/works. There are many other articles like this and google scholar may help you in the future for more scientific hard evidence answers.


http://www.murphys-laws.com/murphy/murphy-true.html

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...01679X01000287

[DT1]

Originally Posted by longbed67

Why you may ask.... because there is a person called Capt. Edward A. Murphy well known creator of Murphy's Law. His principle has come to visit everyone I know time to time and has also visited myself, if you have not experienced his principle you are either lucky and should go buy a lottery ticket, you suffer from amnesia, or are in denial... If you are unaware of his principle check the link below for the story. I hope you never experience engine problems but if you are truly interested in the hard evidence you should refer to peer review chemistry journals that have thoroughly tested this and read the results for yourself. The second (lower) link is one to a peer reviewed article confirming its anti wear properties and as well breaks down its mechanism of how ZDDP actually acts/works. There are many other articles like this and google scholar may help you in the future for more scientific hard evidence answers.


http://www.murphys-laws.com/murphy/murphy-true.html

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...01679X01000287

Fantastic! So now I'm supposed to pay $31.50 to read the article?
I already have hard evidence. All of the cams that I have ever had must be made from some magic metal that's impervious to premature wear.

[prostreetC-10]

Originally Posted by DT1

I already have hard evidence. All of the cams that I have ever had must be made from some magic metal that's impervious to premature wear.

.......but doesn't that bring me right back to what's the point of the thread? You mind is made up.

Sorry about Stanford......... Can't wait for the BCS rankings on Monday!

[a2tripp]

for whats its worth, im no engine builder or chemist but I switched from mobil1 to brad penn oil soon after I bought my truck. All my cold start valvetrain noise is gone. Plus its green

[OhOneWS6]

This one won't last long. Tons of info out there already on this subject. You have obviously already made you decision. Get over it.

[prostreetC-10]

I think we would be better off debating if Stanford has a chance of getting their A$$ back from Oregon!! WOOOOOWHOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!