327 W/ A.I.R. W/AC W/PS Pulley Help?

[cortcomp]

First: I am sorry for starting yet another thread with what would seem to be an easy problem for those of you used to these trucks. I know my pontiacs, but chevy's are new to me (you mean chevy cranks didn't always have a bolt hole in the center? Short and long water what?). I do search all over this site and google and read as much as i can before starting a new thread.

Hit another snag on putting together the 327 tonight. For those new to my project, it's a California 66 factory 327 that came with AIR smog, AC, power steering.

I have a new balancer, and have checked that it is the same as my old factory one in measurement from the surface that hits the crank timing gear to the face. After installing, it sits so the crank snout is about 1" down inside the balancer hole. Looking at the dirt mark on my old one, that seems to match. I am 99% sure it is on all the way. Heated it with boiling water, used a proper installer (my crank had been drilled and tapped prior) and done this three or so times and it always stops at the same point, and the keyway is in straight. I honed it to clean it up with a brake hone, cleaned, and used some light oil on the snout. Everything would seem normal.

I have a new cast iron short water pump. I have the pulleys that came off the truck from, what i believe, is the factory:

One groove Power steering pulley i haven't put on yet because i don't have the pump, stamped steel.

three groove cast iron AC pulley

two, two groove crank pulleys, no gaps, snug against the balancer that seem indexed and meant to mate together. Outermost one is cast iron, part number 3876326.

Here are pics, it just seems pretty far off to start with? I had to use a 1/16 shim on the water pump pulley so it doesn't brush the water pump, but the previous pump had one on it too, and this seems like 1/2" off?! I could see the balancer being like 1/8" MAYBE, i checked the length of the crank snout, etc, etc. I really think it's right. It sure can't go on a ton more.

Am i missing something dumb here?

[yelmer]

on my 66 ac 327 truck w ps the only thing that I see different from mine in the balancer my timing mark tab is not that deep into the balancer only about a 1/4 of the way . it looks like yours is about half way

[cortcomp]

I will check tomorrow, but i think the balancer part was thicker than stock, but shaft and back to face dimensions were.the same. So thicker but shouldnt affect mounting distance.

Do you have a three or four groove bottom pulley setup? I find conflicting info if mine is correct. Btw your motor is gorgeous, have it as a refefence and as backdrop on my pc.

[cru_zn_29]

I checked my 65 327 calif truck. 1 1/2 " from block face at timing cover to back side of balancer. Balancer thickness is 1 1/2" and the distance from block face to center of first pulley is 3 1/2 ". Hope that helps.

[yelmer]

I would check the balancer width . is that a aftermarket balancer ? yes I have 4 pulleys but use 3 . those can be a pain to line up if you get the wrong parts , it looks right to me the only thing I would suspect is the balancer

[LT1 Burb]

I feel your pain, I literally have 10-20 different pulleys and balancers left over from mine.

[Captainfab]

I would measure the water pump to verify that it is a typical truck/passenger short water pump and not the Corvette short pump. The truck/passenger short pump measures 5-5/8" from mounting surface to the face of the flange. The Corvette pump measures 5-13/16"

[cortcomp]

LT1burb: I have read all of your threads this past week while researching motor details and man i do feel for you, you seemed to have it way worse than me...i'm at least 99% sure these are all factory matching pulleys and brackets.

Cruzn29, thanks for the measurements! The aftermarket balancer is thicker, but it shouldn't matter if it's thicker to the rear of the balancer, not the face. I will use your measurement of 3.5" to center of first groove. If i read your measurements correctly, from the block face to the face of the balancer where the pulley mounts is 3" (1.5 to back of balancer then balancer 1.5 thick)? I will check that also.

Yelmer: Thanks for verifying the four grooves. If i set the stock balancer, face up on a table, and the replacement next to it, they are both the same exact height. Even though one is thicker, the measurement from crank gear surface to pulley surface is the same, so i thought i was safe. Will triple check tonight. With your crank pulley, is the 4th, outermost groove lined up with the outermost of the water pump, or is the 4th groove further to the front of the truck than any other pulley? In other words, I'm not sure if i should be trying to make the pulleys flush on the forward most face, or if the crank pulley fourth groove is out in front more, and the rear three grooves line up.

Captainfab: I thought the corvettes had the larger center pilot hole? I thought again i was safe, and i even verified the pump application...with summit, so now i'm doubting that detail. The first one i got of that part number didn't have the bypass on top or even a casting for it! I've read of other people pressing the flange onto the shaft more, but if i do that the pulley will rub. On the corvette pumps, is the casting the difference in measurement or just where the put the flange on the pump shaft? Not that it really matters, if it's wrong it's wrong, but i'd like to know for the future.

The dimensions captain posted and cruzn should be able to tell me exactly which item is off instantly, and yelmers info should tell me which groove alignment i'm aiming for, thank you all very much. Unfortunately i don't have the PS yet, should be next week, and the manifolds are out being blasted so i can't mount the alternator, which means i can't mount any other pulleys to see who the culprit is.

Thank you all again, will follow up with what i find later!

[cortcomp]

Water pump measures 5 5/8 from mounting surface to pulley mounting flange face, so it would seem that is correct. Timing cover block surface to pulley mounting face is about 2 3/4, which seems too far into the motor? I know i triple checked the total height of the balancers..i'm betting if i put the stock back on, it's the same amount off.

I'm wondering if engine builder used a timing set with a thinner crank gear, is that a thing? Or should there be a shim in the timing cover somewhere?

If i remove this balancer and it does match my stock one, then i'd think another replacement one would too. Does anyone shim balancers and/or pulleys out? I dont think bolt spacers on the 3 pulley bolts wpuld be safe, but i could see one between the balancer and crank gear. Off to google some more!

[cortcomp]

Captain, from a corvette forum:

"For 62 to 68 small block short pump, Chevy, Chevelle and Chevy II, the measurement from the machined surface that mates to the block to the face of the fan hub is 5-9/16". For 55 to 65 Corvette and truck and 55 to 61 Chevy the measurement is 5-11/16"

Is that correct and i should have a longer pump for the truck, or is it like above where the truck as the shorter pump?

The "long and short" of it now (couldn't resist) is the water pump needs to come back in (about impossible) or the balancer be farther out (which could be balancer, or crank timing gear causing.) I can't really be 100% sure without having the alternator and power steering on to see how THEY are in relation to the crank, and i won't have those parts likely until next week.

[cortcomp]

Reading i see that corvettes had a small spacer (about 3/16 if that) that probably made a standard balancer work with the longer pump captain talks about above, it went between the balancer and timing crank gear.

If it turns out to be the timing set gear is slightly thinner or the balancer was 1/4" shallower and i didn't catch it, then likely something like this will just handle it:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lower-Crank-...5896ca&vxp=mtr

I hate to switch balancers, the water pump would seem correct...i wish i had my parts to compare power steering and alternator!

[cru_zn_29]

Some of the old small blocks had a oil slinger between balancer & timing gear. What about using a small square from water pump pulley center to balancer pulley center. If the balancer needs to go more put balancer on a lathe and shorten the snout.

[cortcomp]

If i'm measuring right, i think the balancer needs spaced out more, vs going on more. Also i think the crank pulley should have one groove out farther than the water pump pulley.

[cru_zn_29]

Are you sure that the first pulley on crank used? You only need 3 belts or am I not seeing something. If you get that lower pulley father out watch the fan.

[cortcomp]

I think all of the grooves would be used with AC and the air pump if i had it and alt and PS pump, and the way the outer pulley is stamped, it fits neatly into the first, so i think they go together.

I'm also pretty sure they're original. Looking at it, the fan is pretty close to that pulley. Then again, if it's supposed to go out, it only needs a tiny amount. I'm not going to do anything else until i get the exhaust manifolds back (to check the alternator alignment) or the PS pump (check it's alignment.) If it's only the crank that's off, i'll see how far and probably get a pulley shim and be done, but it will bother me that i really never knew what caused it.

[Captainfab]

I guess I should have been more specific in my statement. My info is based on the Edelbrock aluminum water pumps. They make a short water pump for the '71-'82 Corvette's that measures 5-13/16" which also has the larger 3/4" diameter shaft. The other pump with the 5-5/8" measurement covers all passenger cars and trucks from '55-'72 and Corvette '69-'70.

The crank pulley groove closest to the balancer is for the alternator. The second groove would be for the alternator with a double groove pulley. The third groove is for the power steering pump. I'm not sure how that would change or be altered with the addition of A/C or A.I.R. pump.

[61K10]

I have never seen pulleys like yours on pu's only heavy trucks. the assembly manual have any pics? i did a 66 ss396 chevelle with smog and my assembly manual had pics of the pulley system for all engs. do you have the smog pump brackets? couple of pics of a car setup. (as you probably have seen)

when you get everything working, if you don't want the smog pump to work just remove the vains. it will spin free.

[cortcomp]

I do not have the smog pump or brackets, just assumed that's why there were so many grooves (double pulley alt and 3 pulley wp and PS and AC and air pump, figured they needed another groove). I really don't know 100% that these are the correct amount of grooves pulleys, but should line up as i didn't throw any belts coming back from CA to OH with the truck a year or so ago.

When i run the numbers on those pulleys, some sources show as 67+ trucks, some say like 64-72, etc so i have to think they are SOME kind of truck application. I have seen others with them (yelmer) so i have to think they'd work even if not 100% correct.

Even if i was just using the WP and crank pulleys, the alignment is off a bit. Until i get the manifolds back to check the alternator or the PS pump in to check it, i don't think i'll 100% know for sure which it is. If it's the balancer is in too far, i will use a pulley spacer i guess to make sure things are straight. If it's the WP, i will throw it through summits plate glass window.

Thank you all again for the measurements, i will check back when i get either the alt or ps pump on and let you all know what i find.

[61K10]

cortcomp--on the sbc eng the early ones had an oil slinger on the crank behind the timing cover that would move your balancer out a little. don't remember what year they stopped using the slinger. might have been only on 265's/283's. good luck---

[cortcomp]

I put on the manifolds and alternator today and the water pump and alternator lined up but the pulley on the crank was a little too far in, about 1/4". I had the spacer below for just such an occasion, it was nicely made and solid and registered the pulleys center well. I put it on and everything lined up;when the PS pump gets here this month, an anticipate no problems. Thanks all for the help! Guessing that the balancer was a little off and i was measuring wrong or didn't catch it, or the timing gears were a little thinner than stock and let the balancer ride back further.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speedw...evy,80736.html