235 starting help?

[53farm]

I've got a '53 3600 with an early 50's 235 in it. It cranks every time, but won't start. It started and ran when I bought it, ran enough to drive it onto the trailer, and ran enough for me to drive it 40-50 yards from the trailer into the driveway...and now won't run. Had truck a couple months. Battery is brand new as of today. Removed the clear fuel filter before the carb and replaced with a piece of tubing to rule out a clog in the filter. There was fuel in filter prior to removing, and its getting fuel through that tube over to carb. Carb is rebuilt according to previous owner. My father helped verify spark. He stuck a screwdriver in #1 plug wire and said he could see it sparking.

It started and ran with the screwdriver stuck in the #1 plug wire end. However, with #1 plug wire plugged back onto spark plug, it just cranks and won't start like its been doing since I got it into the driveway. Trying to verify timing but I can't see the bead/BB on flywheel through the peephole, but I can see the needle. There is also a threaded hole that I can see at one point on the flywheel. Is this where the BB was attached? Or anything in relation to the BB? Gotta be something distributor related, no? What am I screwing up??? Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

[magicoolbus]

Sounds like you have the three things you need: Air, fuel and spark. I would pull the spark plug and verify that the spark is indeed clearly visible when cranking. This will also allow you to find the 'bb.' Put your finger over the number 1 plug hole and turn engine over with crank nut(key off please). When you feel compression on your finger, you should begin to see the bb. The rotor should be pointing to number one position on dist cap. You can also check the point gap to ensure that is correct.
All that said, if it ran before, it should do it again. Be sure to get some fuel down the carby.

[JR25]

Remove the valve cover and watch the lifters to determine TDC. Don't need BB this way! As soon as intake valve on #1 closes (second rocker from front) you are there! The #1 cylinder will be ready to fire. It will close when push rod goes down and valve stem comes up, the exhaust valve will open immediately after this happens, if you see the exhaust rocker move (first rocker from front) slowly turn it back until it closes. You can get close with the starter, then fine tune by hand.
When you get to TDC, then check the distributor to make sure the rotor is pointing at #1 wire! If anything, set the rotor JUST past the #1 wire...... barely, this will add a slight advance..... tune by ear from there. You want to be a little advanced... don't want her firing with the exhaust valves open, but not too much, or you will slam the piston back down in the cylinder before the crank shaft gets to the point of turning over!

Keep us posted, and DON'T GIVE UP!!!
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[JR25]

Oh yeah, stovebolt.com forums is a big help with these engines. Use the search and put 235 xxxxxxx (substitute xxxx with your problem)
Lots of info!
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[mr48chev]

Well, you need three things for it to run. A fuel/air mixture, compression and spark. Then you need them all at the right time together.

Since it was running then it wasn't running I'd look at the things you did between running and not running.

You say you have gas to the carb so we can fairly well eliminate that.

Runs with #1 disconnected but doesn't run with #1 connected. Strange one but is the cap possibly shorted out so that that particular cylinder grounds out all or several plugs?

Did you happen to wash the engine or has there been a serious rain storm since you got it home? Check the inside of the cap for condensation.

Carbon tracks inside the cap? Cracked cap? Rotor not up to snuff for some reason?

The ball in the flywheel is pretty much like a ball bearing pressed into a hole in the flywheel.

I think I would do it by the numbers:

Run a compression test to make sure I had reasonable compression in all cylinders.

bring number 1 up on TDC and make sure that it is in time.

make sure I was getting spark and then try to fire up.

[Speedbumpauto]

The 80% solution for the no start problem when everything seems sort of OK is breaker points either corroded or not adjusted properly. It's been so long since engines had them that most forgot how to check or adjust. If the points are too close together, either because of wear or corrosion, which is the most common situation, you can get a spark, but it will be weak, especailly on a 6V system AND it will also be out of time, somewhat. Replace the points and condenser for good measure. Adjust properly and I bet it will run. THEN check the timing. Sequence is important.

[dubie]

point, cap, wires and plugs. Change em all and then fire it. If it'll start with a screw driver stuck in #1 wire but not when it's hooked to the plug, this is the first place I'd be looking

[Zach B]

Try the distributor. If that does not work the. Check fuel lines. If that does nothing then check for clogged intake.
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[mr48chev]

You figure anything out yet?

[53farm]

Thanks for all the replies! Got caught up the last day or so but am gonna attack it again this evening or tomorrow. I have a new distributor cap, condensor, rotor, and points ready to install. Will get some fresh spark plugs and try again. It's already been converted to 12 volt for whatever that's worth. I have not sprayed/washed the engine bay, but did power wash the outside awhile back. Perhaps water got in somewhere it shouldn't have. I really appreciate everyone's time that responded. I will definitely let everyone know how the next assault on the motor goes. Stay tuned...
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[OrrieG]

We fought with my daughters 65 Mustang for two hours sunday after a manifold and carb swap. Ran ok before. Turned out to be the wire connection to the fitting on the distributor. Also, if you have been in the 235 distributor it is easy to ground out the connector for the points to the base plate.

[53farm]

Finally got back on the 235 today. Put on new plugs, wires, distributor cap, rotor, condenser, and points. The wife helped turn it over and I was able to find the BB in the flywheel this time. Lined that up with the needle and then set the points gap at .019". I gapped the spark plugs to .035". It still cranked as always but wouldn't start. Poured some gas down the carb and it started and ran for a few seconds. I've tried to give it a little gas as it's running, but it cut off as soon as it went through the gas I poured in the carb. Wife said when it did run it was smoking white some. It didn't really smoke when it ran when I brought it home.

I disconnected the fuel line between the fuel pump and the carb to verify its not blocked. It's clear. Previous owner said he put a new fuel pump on it for whatever thats worth. It does look new/newer. There is gas getting into the fuel filter just before carb...but it definitely should have a clean filter. I opened the oil filter to check the condition of the oil. It's almost a caramel color. Definitely need to do an oil change ASAP!

So what did I miss, or do out of order? Is there still something that needs attention in the ignition system, or am I totally overlooking something else? Thanks.

[OrrieG]

pull the top off the carb and check for stuck needle attached to the float or crud between thr inlet and seat. also check accelerator pump. soundd like you got the elec part solved. also confirm new fuel pump is working, tank crud can tear the diaphragm.
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[Midgets50]

mine had a similar problem after making checking everything and replacing a few things it just needed a little help getting started so after getting new plugs i sprayed ether in each cylinder and it fired right up

[OrrieG]

Just reread and picked up on carmel color oil and white smoke. you do not have water is the oil do you??? It will be thin and look like creamed coffee. Hope not. Also, I assume you drained the tank and put fresh gas in it??

[53farm]

Thanks again folks! I'll have to go get some ether and give it a try, and have a closer look at the carb too. Yes, water in the oil did cross my mind but am not sure. Oil in the filter definitely didn't look right though. I unfortunately didn't take note of said smoke since it would only run for a few seconds the other day, and the wife was sitting behind it where she could see. I do know the gas I was putting in the carb is not new. It been sitting in a plastic gas can for several months.

Still doesn't explain the caramel like oil in the filter of course. Could indeed be water in there I suppose. When I pulled the filter out, I could see a line around it where the oil color and consistency seemed to differ some if that makes sense. None of it is the consistency oil should be though, I know that much. No, I haven't drained the gas tank but I should. Stupid question, but can I drain it without pulling the tank out? Just hoping I can make it run long enough so, if nothing else, I can get it turned around the other way in the driveway to make an engine swap easier. Certainly not what I want to do right this minute, but I gotta have it running one way or the other. I'll keep everyone posted.

[JR25]

Originally Posted by 53farm

When I pulled the filter out, I could see a line around it where the oil color and consistency seemed to differ some if that makes sense.

Oil on top, water on bottom??

Still should run though, but wouldnt want to run it long! Not too sure metal to metal parts (bearings, pistons, etc) last long with a oil/water mixture.

After letting it sit for a day or so, drain some from the oil pan plug into a glass or clear plastic container and examine it. The water should settle to the bottom of the pan, so you will see it in the jar/glass/cup.

All of that said, if you are gonna do an engine swap, why leep worrying with it! Pull it, give it to me, and it will become my headache!!
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[53farm]

Haha, thanks. I'll keep you in mind JR25. I definitely don't want to swap it if I don't have to...at least not right now. I just replaced the fuel sending unit it my OT '63 Bel Air with the 230 inline 6. I realize its a different motor, vehicle, and gearing, but the Bel Air's gas mileage doesn't appear to be that far off from what my '99 Jeep Cherokee with slightly larger-than-stock tires is getting...so I'm not ready to give up on the 235 in the truck yet.

Bought new oil for the truck, but have to order a fresh filter cartridge before I change it. I'll drain a little out of the pan and have another look.

In true can-of-worms fashion, it seems there is also something draining my battery. The truck had a fairly new marine deep cycle battery in it when I bought it. Previous owner said he had been leaving the battery disconnected when not messing with the truck because something was draining it. It had been converted to 12V before I got it. I was doubtful, but thought maybe there was an issue with the battery itself, and it was after all meant to be in a boat. I hit Sears and bought a brand new Diehard. Hooked it up and tried starting it. It cranked right away as always but wouldn't start on it's own. I left the new battery connected (with the key off) and in 2-3 days of being connected in the parked truck, it was dead. What is draining my battery???

I have not gone through it yet and checked every connection, as my priority has been trying to make the motor start and run on its own. Yes, I tried starting when the new battery was fresh as well as with a battery charger/starter. Only time it would actually fire and run was when I had poured gas into the carb...and even then it only runs until it burns the gas that was poured in the carb. Got some ether that I'm gonna try too. In the meantime, I stuck the new, re-charged battery in my OT '63 Bel Air and its working great. Bel Air had a much smaller, several year old battery in it, so I'm sure its glad for the fresh juice. Anyway, if anyone has any thoughts as to what's draining my batteries, I'm all ears! Thanks!

[OrrieG]

Finding the short will be a challenge because there is no fuse box to isolate circuits. Get a wiring diagram and start with stuff that would be powered with the key off, dome light, horn, etc. Pulling bulbs, disconnecting power will break the circuit. Do one at a time and check between the ground post and ground cable end with a meter set to check resistance. Old school was to do a basic search is the connect a good battery then in the dark start moving wires around looking for a spark. Has to be something that is not switched.

[bowtiesr4me]

Ok folks here goes.
have spark on plugs, dist, and ignition.
have gas in carb. bowl full and so was bottom of intake! ?
all spark plugs have compression but the plugs are dry as a bone.
no gas getting to the plugs.
It turns over and over but nothing.
Any Ideas?
Thanx
Mike

[mr48chev]

Had to look at your post twice Mike but it is a lot more productive to start a new thread on a subject, even the same subject we have answered time and again rather than tacking your question on a long time dead one. A lot of guys only look at the opening post and throw out an answer and never read all of the posts in a thread.

Any engine to run needs

Fuel/air mixture
Ignition spark
Compression in the cylinders.

Those three things have to get together at the same time at or near the top of the compression stroke for the engine to run.

It looks like you have plenty of fuel
It looks like you have a good spark

You said it had compression but how much compression? Did you take a compression test? It might be able to blow your finger out but not have enough to run.

Timing, does it have the timing right? if you have number one cylinder up on compression and on tdc so the timing mark showing in the window in the bellhousing is the rotor pointing right at the spot where the number 1 spark wire is in the cap? It's real easy to get an engine 180 degrees out of time if you just line up the mark and drop the distributor in the hole and line the rotor up with number one as number six cylinder may be up on compression at the time. Usually that gives you a nice big backfire though.

[bowtiesr4me]

Thx Mr.48!
been working on the car all day to get it started for a customer that drove a long way an never got her to run. I was little peturbed!
The cas ran "when we parked it" 2 years ago in the basement garage, that's why I thought the ol 6 would just need little fresh gas, hot battery and away we go. NOT.
Ill try few more things and c
HAGD
Mike